LAURA JAYES - This body warns it will forever change the way Australia is governed. A committee comprised of former and current MPs and Indigenous figures will argue that the Voice will fail to improve the results and lives of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders. Joining me live now is The Nationals leader, David Littleproud, who is also against the Voice to Parliament. David Littleproud, thanks so much for your time. Are you linked with this No campaign?

DAVID LITTLEPROUD

No, the National Party isn't linked. While there are former leaders of the National Party that are part of it, and a member of our current party room that's obviously part of the No committee, our party room made an individual stand, member by member, around where we believed this piece of legislation should stand in terms of our support. And we failed to be able to get to a juncture where we could support it, because we've been down this path before, this path of representative bodies that have failed to close the gap and it'll add another layer of bureaucracy.

That's all it'll do. While it might work in Redfern, it won't work in the remote areas, that few of these Indigenous Australians will have to come to Canberra to represent over hundreds of thousands of square kilometres. Hundreds of different communities have different challenges and opportunities that need to be fixed. We've tried it before. It hasn't worked. So there's no malice.

LAURA JAYES

We have never tried a Voice to parliament position. We've not tried a Voice to parliament. That's the whole point, isn't It?

DAVID LITTLEPROUD

We've had a representative body that was elected. That's the issue that we have. We had a representative body before, it didn't work. It didn't close the gap, particularly in regional and remote areas, and that's where most disadvantage is. So there's no malice where The Nationals have got to, but we look at this through a different lens to rest of the country because we actually live it and we experience it every day. I think that's important that Australians understand that The Nationals are taking a practical stand about how do we close the gap.

And that's the most important thing that we should be aiming for. And we should have ambitious goals about how do we close a gap, by what date? Uh making sure that we're honest with ourselves about achieving that.

LAURA JAYES

Well, nothing has worked so far. The gap hasn't closed. And we are talking about decades and billions upon billions of dollars thrown at this issue. I want to get back to this No campaign that's been launched today. What do you disagree with, with this campaign that you're not linked to?

DAVID LITTLEPROUD

Well, we don't believe that a representative body will close the gap. It's as simple as that.

LAURA JAYES

Oh no, sorry. The No campaign. I'm talking about the issues that have been raised by Jacinta Price and Warren Mundine. What do you disagree with what they've put forward?

DAVID LITTLEPROUD

Well, I'm not getting to the level of involvement that Jacinta Price and others are, but they have our strong support. Our party room has made that decision, each one individually about their own position on this. And so we'll continue to make sure that our position is clear. But we support and hope that this is a respectful conversation that the country should have and the right environment's created. Where it's not personal, that it's actually about a contest of ideas. And that's where we'll simply continue to prosecute our cases as the National Party.

And the no, and yes, committees can do what they like, but The Nationals are fiercely independent. We're independent of any other organization.

LAURA JAYES

Okay. One of the issues raised in this No campaign coalition, let's call them, is that it will fundamentally change the way Australia is governed. They also say, you know, it shouldn't be based on race. They say, if Indigenous people would to be recognized in the Constitution, they want to do it in a separate way, they think migrants should as well. Now, Warren Mundine in an interview, was asked about whether this was just kind of designed to make the whole thing fail.

Do you think migrants should be recognized in the Constitution if Indigenous Australians are?

DAVID LITTLEPROUD

Look, I think we've got to be careful with this if we're going to change the preamble. And I think if that was the question, and I can't speak for the party room because that's not the question that's being put to us. But if the question was to acknowledge that Indigenous Australians were here first and that we're better together as a nation, then I think, that our party room, we would come to a position of support more broadly. But that hasn't been put to us. And I couldn't pre-empt what the party room would get to if that was the question, but I think we need to be careful about the issues that are at play here. There are two issues, if you want constitutional recognition in the preamble, that's hasn't been put to us.

If it's about creating a body that's about closing the gap, that's where we have a real disagreement with, because we've done it before and it's failed before. More bureaucracy is not the answer. Better bureaucracy is the answer.

LAURA JAYES

What do you think about what's going on in Alice Springs, Townsville, many unreported places like Tenant Creek where you do see this increased levels of violence, domestic violence, and you know, many people in Alice Springs, it's actually been going on for three years. You say all these things have been tried. We hear from Linda Burney, she believes, you know, if there's more ownership, Indigenous people are recognized in the Constitution, it would change things. I mean, when you look at what's going on in Alice Springs, do you, does some part of you, David Littleproud, just think, well, surely we could just try it. The world wouldn't fall in?

DAVID LITTLEPROUD

Well, surely, let me just say that the best way to fix this is better bureaucracy and not having bureaucrats in Canberra, to reinstate the grog bands, to reinstate the cashless debit card. Some tough love is required. While the Labor Party have removed all these policies that we put in place that was to minimize harm because they wanted to give dignity back to those people that couldn't go and buy a grog, women and children that have been victims of domestic violence. There are social issues there that need to be fixed and there needs to be economic empowerment.

And what we believe is that this can be done very quickly. With government departments and the Prime Minister and those that have the political leadership to be out and the decision makers to be out and to make sure that there are bespoke models for Alice Springs as they should be.

For Carnarvon where I was only about six or eight months ago. I see the president, Shire president today asking for the Prime Minister to go up there. Their issues are real as well. But the solution for Carnarvon will be different to that of Alice Springs. And to ask one or two Indigenous Australians to be all over that part of the world, thousands, hundreds of thousands of square kilometres that have different solutions and be able to come up with and create bespoke solutions to it, it just simply can't work. You simply need to have these bureaucrats out on the ground and have the courage and conviction to follow through with policies that while might impinge on a few, are for the greater good for the safety of children. You have to have the courage to make those decisions protecting the dignity of all rather than just a few.

LAURA JAYES

You talk about the bureaucrats being based in Canberra, but there has been little detail. I mean, you are pretending that a Voice would see more bureaucrats in Canberra. I mean, that's just not right.

DAVID LITTLEPROUD

No, I'm not. No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm not saying that at all. That's not right. I'm saying is that the bureaucracy that we have at the moment is sitting in Canberra and you can't get a lens on the real world by living in a city.

LAURA JAYES

Well, what was the Uluru Statement from the Heart? Were there bureaucrats sitting in Canberra?

DAVID LITTLEPROUD

No, but that wasn't all of Indigenous Australians making those representations.

LAURA JAYES

But how do you get the David Littleproud? Because you seem to be setting standards that can never be achieved. You know, that Indigenous people aren't one homogenous group. They don't all agree, but the Uluru Statement from the Heart is probably the closest we're going to get. And there was disagreement within that, but that's, you know, a democracy within our Indigenous population. What's wrong with that?

DAVID LITTLEPROUD

Exactly. And so I have a right as one of the 227 voices to the Australian parliament, not just for Indigenous Australians, but for every Australian. That's the premise of our great country is that we're all equal. But when there is disadvantage, the government steps in and it fixes that disadvantage. That's the greatness about it.

LAURA JAYES

With respect your side, you had 10 years. For the last 50, 60 years it hasn't improved.

DAVID LITTLEPROUD

Sorry, Laura, but with respect, $5.3 billion put into a procurement program to create economic empowerment for Indigenous businesses. 97% of Indigenous children now go to kindergarten. These are the dials that have been shifted. So let's not talk down ourselves too much. There are problems that need to be fixed. They can be fixed with bespoke solutions. And so that's what we're saying. So to sit here and to say that we haven't progressed, I think misrepresents where this country has come from, the real intent about fixing these problems and there is genuine intent to do it, but to put in another representative body will not do that.

But by making sure that you have bespoke solutions to Carnarvon as it needs to be and that community, they're not one or two voices, but the community should tell the bureaucrats and the politicians about what are the programs to shift the dial.

And with that comes mutual responsibility. Because nobody, no Australian, no matter their creed has the right to Australian taxpayers money. It is a privilege. And that privilege should come with mutual responsibility and making sure that there is food on the table for your children and they go to school. And if you can't do that, then the government needs to step in with things like the cashless debit card, making sure that there are sound foundations around their families to be able to live happily and to give them the opportunity of hope into the future. That's what The Nationals believe in practical common sense solutions, not ideology.

Now we believe, and if the question was put to us, should we give constitutional recognition? That's a different question to what's been put to us at the moment. So we live and breed this, so while the commentariat look down their nose at The Nationals, how many of them have lived in these communities?

How many of them represent these communities? How many of them have actually stepped outside of capital city before they can demonize us? We're the ones that are left with the consequences of this. And we are genuinely about trying to shift this and to close the gap. That's the genuine intent that The Nationals have come from. And we have lived experience from it. We have practical experience, we have common sense to take to Canberra and to make sure that bureaucrats work better. We've achieved a lot, but there's a lot more we can do. But with that comes mutual responsibility from everybody.

LAURA JAYES

Yep. Absolutely. Well said David Littleproud. We talk to you about this every week. We are going to continue, certainly a lot of passion on both sides. Speak to you soon.